Hello all! Now the purpose of the discussion is to discuss feminism in relation to religion. Can they co-exist as they are now?

I thought of these questions when I was talking about feminism to a friend who studies ethics, and this is the sort of thing they debate about in lessons.
I've tried my best to think of questions to kick-start this thread which respects both the religous and the feminists (not that a feminist can't be religious, but you know what I mean). Also, each question includes a statement which, no matter what opinion you have, can be used to form your argument. Remember: you don't need to answer all of them!

My main questions:

• Can a true women's rights activist considor herself a true member and supporter of the Church (remember you can be religious without having to go to Church!) and be a feminist?
• Are women oppressed in Church?
• Is the Church doing enough to conquer any inequality (if any)?
• Does the current hierarchy in the Church need updating?
• (The Big One) Does anything in the Bible (or any other religous text) promote or hint at inequality between the sexes?
• (Do you agree with the statement) Feminists have nothing to complain about, as there is no inequality in religion (in practise or in theory).

Rules for this thread:

• This is not an excuse to have a go at the Church, any religion or feminists.
• Remember: constructive arguments for your opinion only please. No "you're all wrong" or "feminists are idiots" please, only mature comments.
• Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Please be aware that this can go into a very contraversial area, so respect is paramount.

I cannot stress enough that a feminist CAN be religous at the same time, so please avoid assuming a feminist is a religion/man-hating woman. Also please remember by the term "religious" I mean a person who follows a particular faith, particulally - for the purpose of this thread - the mainstream religons such as Christianity. I am aware that some religons have greater emphasis on equality than others.

Figgi

What church? The Church of England, I'm guessing?

There are kind of big differences among Christian denominations and their gender equality.

Sorry, I should have made it clear. By 'Church' I mean the general term for any specific place of worship. Its a big generalisation I know. I'll update when I get back, sorry I have to go now.

Can a true women's rights activist considor herself a true member and supporter of the Church (remember you can be religious without having to go to Church!) and be a feminist?
I believe so, yes. Perhaps it is because I come from a liberal church (I'm Anglican, you know us - we elected an openly gay bishop in Massachusetts), and we are big supporters of a woman's right to participate in church functions as more than just cooks, cleaning crews, songstresses, and decorators.

Are women oppressed in Church?
Depends on the church. For example, Southern Baptists and Pentecostals believe that women are not supposed to preach. They're also to wear long dresses and submit to their husbands. In contrast, women in the Anglican and Lutheran churches are ordained often, are allowed to dress how they please, and are almost expected to be outspoken and bold. The Anglican wedding vows don't even include the word 'Obey' at all from what I've seen.

Is the Church doing enough to conquer any inequality (if any)?
Again, I suppose it depends on the church. The aforementioned Southern Baptists and Pentecostals won't do anything about it because it's part of the belief system. Christian fundamentalists that they are, they believe that because woman was created second, she's second class. And so they won't do anything about it.

Does the current hierarchy in the Church need updating?
In some churches, yes. But again, it is part of the belief system, and as such will not likely change. You have to remember that the belief system is paramount to anything else.

(The Big One) Does anything in the Bible (or any other religous text) promote or hint at inequality between the sexes?
I do, but I don't fault the Bible, I fault the times in which it was written. Feminism and women's rights are relatively new movements. Even when King James ordered the overhaul of the Bible, women were still second class. I cannot fault the MEN who wrote the Bible, because they are MEN and they are FALLIBLE. But I believe God considers both sexes equal.

(Do you agree with the statement) Feminists have nothing to complain about, as there is no inequality in religion (in practise or in theory).
I believe that SOME feminists have something to take up cause for. Feminists in the Catholic and Christian Fundamentalist sects of Christianity certainly do. I believe that most of the inequality in religion has more to do with the belief system and the 'We've always done it this way' mentality than the fact that it's a religion.

Can a true women's rights activist considor herself a true member and supporter of the Church (remember you can be religious without having to go to Church!) and be a feminist?

Why not? To be honost, I don't think I met a feminist at any church function, but I do recall one or two teachers at my high school (a catholic high school) that were feminist and partook in the monthly masses we had. Before attending, there was one feminist teacher who left to do missionary work.

Are women oppressed in Church?

It's not like women cannot participate in church activities (again, speaking on what I know as a catholic). They can read from the pulpit, often they are the formation of the choir. Nuns stereotypically teach in Catholic schools (that isn't their only job, but that is how they seem to be portrayed alot).

Is the Church doing enough to conquer any inequality (if any)?

(again, Catholic views) Vatican II seemed to conquer inequality by leaps and bounds. While women still cannot become priests, much of the reforms from Vatican II allowed them to participate in various functions in the Mass (nearly a decade before the Feminist upheavals in the 70s.).

Does the current hierarchy in the Church need updating?

Not sure. To be honost, I don't know what the reasons against women priests are, just that there is not a big drive for this kind of reformation (from both men and women) in the church.

(The Big One) Does anything in the Bible (or any other religous text) promote or hint at inequality between the sexes?

New Testimate or Old Testament? The bible is a big book, a good portion of it laws for a society that has long since evolved away from them. In the Old Testimate, the greatest anti-woman bit was the creation story. But in the Gospels, it is the Virgin Mary who is portrayed as Jesus' greatest disciple. It was the prostitute who wiped Jesus' feat with her tears that was treated with the most respect by him, it was a woman who moved him to preform some of his greatest miracles (Mary asked him to do something at the wedding where he changed water into wine, and he was moved with compassion by the women who were mourning, motivating him to raise Lazerus from the dead."

(Do you agree with the statement) Feminists have nothing to complain about, as there is no inequality in religion (in practise or in theory).

Going back to the Vatican II thing, one of the biggest reforms that a lot of people forget, is that you don't need to agree with what the church says. I know priests who support gay marriage, devout Catholics who support Pro-choice movements, ect. I'm not a women, I don't have a problem with the church. Certainly, she can have an opinion to the contrary and voice it. I'm just not hearing alot of complaining.

* Can a true women's rights activist considor herself a true member and supporter of the Church (remember you can be religious without having to go to Church!) and be a feminist?)
-Personally I dont think so. Its been an ongoing question in my own life, as I was more or less a christian before I got pagan. Now, I cant say that isnt possible (even necessary) for christian as well as muslim (or any other faith) women to be active in their religious community and change things from within that frame. But for me, no.

* Are women oppressed in Church?
- I guess they are, if they feel that way. If not, the question is rhetorical.

* Is the Church doing enough to conquer any inequality (if any)?
In Sweden,(protestant) it seems the church is getting more open and modern, we also have a lot of female priests and-to an extent,-acceptance of homosexuality.
Sweden has never been a very religous country, so the church has to change to the wishes of the people if wanting to survive.

* Does the current hierarchy in the Church need updating?
-Overall, yes.

* (The Big One) Does anything in the Bible (or any other religous text) promote or hint at inequality between the sexes?
-well, obviously the bible is full of it. And the fact that GOD has neither mother nor wife...and in most cases are seen as a masculine force

* (Do you agree with the statement) Feminists have nothing to complain about, as there is no inequality in religion (in practise or in theory).
-Yes I do, in practice. Cause if one wants to complain: leave the church, go find an alternative faith, make your own r-evolution. In theory its more complex I suppose. As I said earlier, feminism within the church may change it on the surface.And one also has to define feminism! It means a lot of different things to different people...To me, feminism in itself means to change, move and shake the values of a patriarchal society. And the church is such a place indeed. Question is if the underlying values can change and still be of that particular religion, or if more equality gives that particular faith a completely new twist (regarding fundamentalist beliefs and values).

(Go Virgin Mary, Go! :female: -...? Hm, I dont know...)

(sorry about the bold letters, Im not yelling or anything...)

I believe men and women are equal in spirit and should always have equal chances and rights, but posess different qualities. It's evident. Men have 10% more muscle mass than women, which makes physical tasks easier for them to do. The reproductive organs differ as well as other things (like breasts and men being more prone to balding).

But they are the differences that help us complete each other in life, perhaps so that we wouldn't be dependant of ourselves but others as well. It should never be the cause of disparity between men and women, but rather, the cause of closeness between both genders.

I think if one was to say that Feminism and Church cannot successfully coexist would be to deny the purpose of feminism. Feminism is about the right of women to make an informed choice and to make her own path in life... If her choice is a spiritual one, then she's successfully being a feminist at church. Feminism is unique to every person who is being a feminist. Its all relative.

What jamesyflukes said...a lot of people think the only feminists are women who have active careers, juggle men and rebel against every established idea, but that's not true. One can be a housewife and be a feminist, and, why not, a Church goer. Feminism is about the freedom to choose what works best for *the individual* woman.

I considor myself a feminist. Anyway, here is one of the things that bugs me - how many male figures can a man aspire to be like in the Bible? - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John... how many respected female figures can a woman aspire to be? A virgin who gave birth to the son of God and a prostitute who was forgiven of her sins by the son of God.

However, I know that this reflects the times. The whole idea of a 'Womans group' in a Church appeals to me, but then again it may come across as patronising, as I don't see a 'Mens group' as well. And of course, religion is a lifestyle choice. Each to their own - I will respect a pagan feminist as much as a christian feminist.

As to a definition of a feminist - I'd say a woman (or man) who strives for equality and freedom - to break free of restrictions that are placed on us at birth, and who is willing to stand up to sexism. After all, "Hell hath no fury than a woman's scorn."

There are more females in the Bible than you give credit for...What about Queen Esther, who saved the Israelites? Then there is Dorcas (also called Tabitha), who's great care for the poor caused Peter to resurrect her when she suddenly became ill and died.

Jesus may have had male disciples, but it is the women that he knew that demonstrated true faith.

I think you don't give Mary, Jesus's mother nearly enough credit. She was chosen specifically by God to be the vessel that carried His son. Mary gave birth to God's son, which is probably the single greatest honor ever. She was chosen by God to carry God within her womb. That's something quite spectacular, if you ask me.

It was also that former prostitute that was the first one to recognize the resurrected Christ for what He was. The Bible is full of women who demonstrate incredible faith in God, are shown to be examples. If the men were chosen to spread the word throughout the four corners of the Earth, it was the women that lived the word.

God created both men and women in His image. We are all Children of God. I see absolutely no reason why a woman cannot be both a Christian and a feminist at the same time. I don't see them as being contradictory to each other. Men and women should work together so that everyone is treated fairly. We are all the same as far as God is concerned, both sexes have the same chance for salvation, so why shouldn't a feminist working to equalize inequalities be comfortable? Some churches have been mistreating women, its true. But, others have embraced them. Not every church, not every denomination is identical to each other. I am sure that if a feminist feels uncomfortable at a specific church, she can find one that she will be comfortable worshipping in.

Actually, my church has both a men's club and a women's club, and neither one of them is patronizing anyone. And as far as the Bible goes... I think it's pretty significant that Jesus chose women to be the first to know about his resurrection. There are plenty of strong matriarchal figures in the Bible, and plenty of women who did great things.

Sigh. I am in a Women's Studies class and a couple weeks ago we had a speaker who talked about how women are oppressed in the three main religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) ((She didn't mention the others)).

There is a form of feminism that promotes equality in religions and you can still be religious and attend church but still keep your feminist beliefs. I know some Catholic women converted to other branches of Christianity where women are allowed to be priests/ministers and they receive equal treatment. Then other women try to educate others on how things in the bible and qur'an can be mis-interpreted and the like.

I personally never felt oppressed in church and I am Roman Catholic. (I even go to a Catholic Women's University..) , but I am not really religious so maybe that is why I haven't felt oppressed or whatever. (I actually like seeing God represented as a man and not a woman but thats my personal belief). I can see how a woman though who is extremely religious and wants to be a priest but can't because of gender, that she might feel jiffed or something.

You should read The Handmaid's tale.

It appears that all the females you have mentioned were associated with 'feminine' things such as giving birth, being dutiful and dedicated, staying at home, things that feminists object to.

As to a feminist christian - My idea of a feminist would be someone who is pro-contraception, (but not always)pro-abortion... a woman who wants to take control of herself and her body. And I know many churches such as the Catholic church object to all of the above. There are certain degrees of feminism then, I think.

Many, but not all. I belong to a denomination called the Christian Reformed Church (protestant, based on Calvinism) and we have female preachers, allow marriage, believe in contraceptives (pre-conception, if the sperm and egg never meet, it was never a human being, so no abortion) We believe that married couples can have sex for recreation, not just procreation, like the Catholics.

I have seen the film based on the Handmaid's Tale...but, since it has nothing to do with the actual Bible, I fail to see what it has to do with whether or not a feminist can be comfortable going to church or not...

I am not Catholic but my fiance is. He wanted to get our son baptized. At first I was against it but then we talked about it and agreed that we can't really wait until he can decide for himself... (Cause really, who turns 18 and goes... 'I want to be Catholic') So we agreed that we could both talk to him about our beliefs and that would be fine.... (and dad's the one who has to take him to church) anyway.... We had to attend this 'class' about the baptism before hand and the deacon told us that it was traditionally the Godmother that held the baby during the ceremony (Not that we had too but it was just something we talked about in this class.) This was because the mother wasn't allowed in the church while she was still bleeding... I couldn't believe it!!!!

Ah, the Wives submit to your husbands verse...and you are right about what comes next. Most feminists use that verse as proof that the Bible is evil, without bothering to read the love your wife as Christ loved the church part. I think your analysis about what husbands have to do for their wives is spot on. By equating husband's love with Christ's love, it sets an incredibly high standard for husbands to live up to. Since Christ never abused or dominated the Church, it seems that any husband who thinks that they are justified in abusing their wives are flat out disobeying the Bible.

I've read the book and seen the film. The film is in no way representative of the book, and the book starts with (to me, as a feminist) repulsive quotes from the Bible. The book is also more powerful, as it relies heavily on Bible references throughout to increase the strength of the plot. Remember it is a story about what happens when people turn to the Bible to try to explain a fertility crisis. And guess who gets blamed? The women, even though in the book it makes it clear that it is the men who are infertile. Because in the Bible there is no infertile men, only barren women. That is the point the book is trying to bring across.

And as to women submitting to their husbands as you've been said... In theory, yes it may well work for many people. But in practise, I'm sure history will tell you a different story. Communism was supposed to be equal and fair for everyone, but in reality it wasn't. You cannot tell a man has power and then tell him to love his wife and respect her with reference to Jesus Christ - it leaves a loophole society can and has exploited and women are instantly demoted as 2nd in the relationship, and are percieved as creatures who need a husband to keep their head straight. Sure love balances it, but I am unconvinced.

I think a feminist can be religious if he/she so chooses but you have to continue fighting for the equality of your status in your religion. *EDIT: I think what I am saying is, that you have to be involve / or like you say religious in order to get rid of the inequality in your respective religion.

otherwise,
how will you answer to your religion head/figures when they ask you to wear a Jubah?

how will you answer to any book that claim you are unclean during your period?

how will you answer to any book that claim if you give birth to a son you will need 7 days to be cleanse, and 14 days if you give birth to a daughter?

how will you respond to any book that ask people to not approach you when you are menstruating?

How will you respond to your religion head when they ask you to burn yourself if you husband die?

Will you let people mutilate your genitals?

Will you let people mutilate your daughter's genitals?

What do you feel about the thought that childbirth is a punishment to a sin?

Why do women have to fight to become priest/pastor?

Ah, but that is a failure of the people involved, not a failure of the scripture.

I think that the main problem comes with conflicting beliefs within a religon. For example, the New Testament preaches forgiveness from sin, however in the Old testament it has instructions for when it is appropriate to stone someone to death. Yet it also says that no one has the right to take away life. Why are books with these instructions still left in the Bible? Personally, all I know is what I see happening around me at my age, and I have a very strong belief that no man has the right to say what a woman can and can not do.

No, the way I see it, they can not coexist.

1.Can a true women's rights activist considor herself a true member and supporter of the Church (remember you can be religious without having to go to Church!) and be a feminist?
Assuming that you are referring to christianity (which I assume because it is the religion I know the most about) No self respecting feminist could support the church. All one has to do is read the bible to notice the numorous instances of sexism. In christianity, women are frequently regarded as nothing more than property and second class citizens. The old testament even says that rape victims are suppsed to be stoned to death or forced to marry their rapist.

2.Are women oppressed in Church?
We live in a patriarchal society where women are the victims of the majority of violent crimes, where women are barred from certain professions and are paid far less than their male counterparts in other career fields. With the exception of course of the sex industry, where women are sexually exploited for money. Women are oppressed in society in general, and especially the church, where many of the stereotypes originated.

3.Is the Church doing enough to conquer any inequality (if any)?
No. If you doubt this, why don't you listen to some of these major church leaders like Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, or the now deceased Jerry Falwell.

4.Does the current hierarchy in the Church need updating?
Yes, it needs a complete overhall. In fact, the entire world does. Men have been running things for thousands of years, and the earth is overrun with horrible violence and corruption. So hows about we strip their rights and get a chance to run things ourselves? This of course, needs to start in the chruch because the religious right has a stranglehold on most of the governments in my portion of the world.

5.(The Big One) Does anything in the Bible (or any other religous text) promote or hint at inequality between the sexes?
Of course, you would truly have to either be illiterate, or one of the most ignorant individuals on the face of the earth not to see that.

6.(Do you agree with the statement) Feminists have nothing to complain about, as there is no inequality in religion (in practise or in theory).
Yes I disagree. Whoever makes a statement like that needs to have their head checked.

Im not going to answer all of the questions because I dont have time. I am not familiar with most religious pratices, but i was raised catholic. I (in the recent past) became involved with a church that considered themselves non-denominational christian. I no longer attend that church(or any) for 4 major reasons. But I will only go into the reasons that have to do with this debate. I took a womens bible study course and the topic was marriage and parenting(mostly marriage). From what they showed me from the bible, women are thought to be equal to their husband, YET when it comes down to it, if there were conflicts in decision making, beliefs, ect the wife is supposed to ALWAYS go with the husbands view. I didnt like that at all because he cant always be right. Secondly, you are supposed to putyour husband first before your children. So lets just pretend that my husband is mallesting my daughter then I am supposed to stick by him???? because divorce is wrong and I am to honor him before my children? That was just an example... But my husband and I ALWAYS put our children first. And If I am looking down on by the church because I wont allow my husband to control me, then all I have to say is church SUCKS. so yeah thats one reason why i dont go to church anymore. I believe in my heart that I have gods love and thats all that matters. and for the record I dont consider myself a feminist at all....so in my opinion, a true feminist could not go to the churches that I have been to.

Wait, Rush Limbaugh is a major church leader? Spiderviveka, I have to point out that including Rush as a church leader is just flat out wrong. Rush Limbaugh is not a church leader of any sort. He may go to church, he may not go to church, I don't know. But I do know that he is NOT a preacher. He is right wing, but not religious right. Why you would think he was a fundamentalist like Robertson or Falwell, I have no idea, other than whatever propaganda you read is flat out incorrect.

I have always thought that, but I never knew all of the stuff that it said. It just makes me so mad. I still fully believe in god, and I know that he loved me the same. But of course the bible was written by god through MEN!