I agree with the blogging thing. I remember I think I rolled it once before I started story telling (in one of the ones where I quit after like their second child was a toddler) and literally all that was to it was like just asking for donations and making them post every so often. I mean, it would be alright if you rolled say perfect children too so it's a very laid back career so if you wanted to like make the most of it you could, but I dunno. I think merging could be a good idea.

Oh jeez, I'm just thinking about if you did roll for kids for each person, imagine the full house roll each with five separate kids xD (just for the record, I do like roll for each child born (as if they could be heir and if they were heir those would be their rolls) but that's more for story telling purposes so I have some basis to shape character and their interests).

I think I just like tilting the number of kids bit because I prefer larger families (I get bored with like one kid lmao; they're not interesting enough on their own).

I agree that we shouldn't add an unemployed roll for the heir because like you said if it's first gen single parent then you're a bit stuffed really. It would be kinda hilarious but a bit unfair xD I'm not sure if this is explicitly stated or not, but we could always really exaggerate the fact that they can only make money from that career, but don't have to, you get me? So, they can be unemployed if they really want to, but you know.

A bit of tuning that I remember noticing a while ago (and by a while I mean A WHILE) was to do with the busking career and busking in subways. My gen 1 help made a lot of money from it, and not that I'm complaining but it feels kinda cheaty? Like she was level 10 guitar, and made up to 20,000 a day, which seems kinda... Cheaty. Maybe it wasn't quite that much, but like within a sim week she easy made a lot, like a lot a lot. So, perhaps limit that? Or I dunno because I guess it's kinda like the artist career if you paint masterpieces then you can easy rake up the money. I guess there's two sides to the coin.

As for properties, I'm up for whatever, I think owning properties could be a roll, but I dunno, I feel like it should be something extra (or something you do when your family has too much money *cough*)

It's always been allowed to basically play Idle Career without even rolling it. I can certainly make that more clear in the rules.

Currently the # of children is weighted towards the middle. 2 & 3 kids has the greatest chance, with 4 or 5 being as likely as rolling 1.

Allowing a re-roll for unemployed on first gen single parent seems like the most logical course of action, then, right?

Busking in the subway is allowed but does seem like a bit much. Like you said, though, there are other careers that rake in the simoleons. We could leave it, or restrict it to once a week, depending on how people feel? It doesn't make sense that busking in a subway grants that much money to be honest.

I don't think we should force owning properties (other than Property Mogul roll). The question still stands on whether or not we should restrict it to certain rolls, or leave it completely open. I'm not really leaning one way or the other.

@Frogsnack: You can use the careers mod for homeschooling - it was actually the original reason I downloaded it, even though I never use that functionality anymore.

I'd also say keep the weighing of the #kids as it is. It makes that Single Parent+5 kids combo that much more special. XD

I was honestly just joking about the moocher career. O_o There wouldn't really be much gameplay involved in it. Personally, I like the idea of having Unemployed for the heir, but I think it might be a bit impractical in practice, not only for the founding generation, but for any generation that's a bit strapped on cash. And like it's been said, it lacks the structure that makes the challenge fun. As for owning businesses/properties, I'd also leave that as is. I don't really like the idea of restricting it to certain careers, but that might only be because it's a regular part of my gameplay and I don't want my sims to lose their little fail-saves. XD

I don't think blogger should be a full out career either. My wishacy sims always wish to have 5 star blogs, so I've played quite a bit with them. The donations are quite sporadic, and the only time you can make money is if you sell high ranking blogs - which frankly, takes a lot of effort to build up.

I'd say restrict busking in subways to once a week. It definitely feels a bit cheaty. But that adds another question - should busking in subways be restricted to only the worlds that originally contains subways, or is it allowed to add one to your town if you play a town without any and you roll busker? I kinda feel like that would go against the spirit of this rule:

One other thing I would like to discuss if the possibility of adding a new Marital Structure roll, one that's a bit like a combo between Single and Second Chance, where the heir is allowed a partner, but the partner has to leave before the end of the generation, and if more than 1 child is rolled, at least one child must be born while the heir is 'Single'. Because, let's face it, not all partnerships lasts, and not everyone who seperates wants to get married again, and that way the kid will be allowed to have their other parent for at least a little while.

I've added subways to a lot of my towns just to make it easier for sims to get around, so I wouldn't want to restrict adding subways. Once a week sounds like a good compromise though.

What would we call that single second chance hybrid family structure roll? Delayed singleness? xD

I added this one to my rough draft: "The Shake Up - It works like Second Chance, but either the first or second "partner" in the household cannot be romantically involved with your heir."

Yay/nay/meh? It was all I think of on the spot.

So, say for example, couple are together, have a child, separate when child is a little older? Could be called the Divorce roll (if i'm understanding it right that is xD)

And Becky, yours is like, for example, siblings living together, one gets with their new partner and moves out with new partner?

Both seem like cool additions to me ^-^ I'm trying to think of ideas but nothing's coming to me. All I can think of is like, absent parent where the spouse/partner keeps coming back but that's more like "I rolled single and feel guilty for the child so they can still know their other parent" roll xD

Could moocher/dumpster diver be rolled into one career? A sim that flies by the seat of their pants and relies on the handouts of strangers/discarded goods.

I think giving the ability to reroll unemployed for a founder is a good solution.

I don't feel like the # of kids roll needs tweaking. It seems pretty well balanced and you always have the option to accidentally on purpose have an additional pregnancy or two. The children from the additional pregnancies wouldn't be eligible to be heirs though.

I like having the option to dump simoleons into businesses if I feel the family is amassing too much wealth. Maybe just add a note to culinary that while anyone can own a bakery lot only those in culinary can work in the bakery?

Speaking of premium content, I don't know if this is possible as I have not played with the canning station yet but can your sims sell jams/preserves? If do, is that something a farmer would be able to do?

Blogger should probably be absorbed into other careers as @nutsandbolts suggested. Journalists can have blogs of any type and ask for donations. Sports agents can have sports review blogs and ask for donations. All other sims can have blogs but cannot ask for donations (because social networking skill is a pain otherwise).

I think busking in parks/on street corners should be left as is since sims don't make an insane amount from that. Subway busking might need to be limited. I'm going to send Varinia to subway busk for a 6-8 sim hours and see how much she makes and then I'll report back. She's level 10 in all instruments so the results will be for a top tier busker.

I would be on board with a marital roll like @ConvictedDreamer suggested. I'd like something like a divorcee option where it's required that you have a child with a partner and then end that relationship before the child reaches teen or something like that. If you are required to have more than one child you can choose to have all with the spouse but still have to divorce before the oldest reaches teen or you can split the kids up any way you'd like with other significant others not in the home or maybe even a fling. On the flip side, what about a family structure where you're required to be a single parent to your kids until the oldest reaches teen and then you are allowed to marry someone other than the biological parent to your previous kids? I suppose that is kind of complicated but it would give a little variety to the family structure roll.

@NutsAndDolts I uploaded the deco simlish letters I converted. There are A-Z in sculpture form that you should be able to stack on top of each other and A-Z as wall hangings. You might need to use the moveobjects on cheat depending on how you want to place them. The wall ones do shift up and down the wall but if you place them too close together they snap together weirdly so you may need OMSP to place them. I used OMSP to place the letters above Lindsay's crib in the picture I posted. Pretty much everything KSimbleton says about these still hold true. These are conversions of her meshes made for TS4 that can be found here .

I shall be back shortly with info on subway busking.
Edited to add links to the TS3 conversions.
Edit # 2: JK the sculptures totally don't stack because I didn't want to spend more time trying to figure out how to make that happen.

Blogger: Hmmm I'll be honest, I kinda like this roll! If you want to merge it then definitely with sports agent because that career requires social networking skill. I'd like to leave the option of having a non-profit blog though, it's not a huge moneymaker anyway without asking for donations. Suggestion: Make news and sports blogs part of journalism and sports agent careers respectively, leave personal and review blogs as a non-profit option for everyone else.

Children/Marital Structure: Before I started my current legacy I considered just adding one child to my roll as a self-enforced rule because I was annoyed with the low number of children rolls in my last legacy... I did stick to the standard rules now but I also like large families so I wouldn't mind adjusting the numbers a bit so that 3+ children aren't as rare. Same goes for marital structure rolls, a little adjustment would be fine.
I like both ideas for new marital structure rolls!

A while ago I suggested to separate IP resorts from the current business owning rule and instead add resort manager as a career. I'd like to bring this up again when we're already discussing the rule... The resorts require more activity than rabbithole venues and I didn't find starting funds to be a problem since you can start really small.

Subway busking once a week sounds good

On Busking

I sent Varinia to busk at the subway with her laser-rhythm-con. She has 10 skill levels in it and I'm sure that has an effect on how much they make.
After 6hrs she had made: $5148
After 8hrs she had made: $6542

This is pretty crazy. We should definitely put a cap on this.

@Keyneky Yes, jarred food can be sold. Adding this to the farmer career is an excellent suggestion.

Thanks for testing out busker for us. I remember it being kind of crazy. A once a week cap sounds good.

"On the flip side, what about a family structure where you're required to be a single parent to your kids until the oldest reaches teen and then you are allowed to marry someone other than the biological parent to your previous kids?"

It's already in the rules that your single parent can move in a romantic partner (whoever they want) after the youngest child is halfway through the teen stage. Not a requirement, just an option. This rule was put in place by calisims if I recall correctly. Her single parents would almost always end up leaving the house to be with their lovers at the end of the generation. After she added this rule, she was able to keep her older sim in the household and give their romance a belated happy ending.

@FutureCarrie? "The Shake Up" suggestion was like, your heir lives with a spouse for a while, but then the spouse dies/leave, and a friend moves in. So it's like a hybrid of second chance and single with help. Though the order can also be reversed. Heir can be living with friend, but later the friend moves out and a spouse moves in. I'm not sure how to word it to make it clearer.

Now I want to roll a farmer just so I can use the canning station.

I know you're allowed to move in your lover after the youngest is a teen but it isn't required. I was thinking of having a roll where it's kind of the opposite of the step parent roll. Instead of your heir being the step-parent the spouse is the step-parent. It was just another option for family structure. I know plenty of people that have one or two kids from a previous relationship and then remarry. Totally understand if it seems redundant though.

@Keyneky It's already technically allowed to do as you're suggesting with a normal couple roll.



Just like you can adopt kids even if you haven't rolled mixed, you can have your heir have kids with people who aren't their spouse... at any time. The third child in generation 8 of my first legacy was the result of my heir randomly cheating on her husband with a firefighter. My roll was couple. Lol.

You can also play the step parent roll with just a normal couple roll, counting the step-kids as adopted.

So while it would be redundant to have a reverse step children roll, there's already a precedent for redundancy, if that makes sense. So we could add it, if enough people want it.

We could also have a third step children roll where both heir AND spouse have to have kids from a prior relationship...

EDIT: Almost forgot! Nocriel's suggestion about the IP resorts. I have just never had an interest in them so I don't have firsthand experience, but if I recall correctly, one of my hesitations to changing the way we handled it was that it would require updating the rules and roller to accommodate such a change. And... now we're updating the rules anyway. So if you're right about them being no issue for first gen, then okay. Resort Owner could be a career. Do you have to live in Isla Paradiso to own resorts, or can they be anywhere?

What I'm talking about here is possibly closer to the 'level five of five different careers' roll, or a 'lazy careers' (I forget what it's called). But the idea is that it could be in the Generation Goals roll set, that the heir quits their job to start a side business, or to slack off and maybe works a part time job because they are bored, not because they want to make money, and not necessarily to become unemployed. There would be a lot of storytelling options to it I think, basically, they could roll a second career halfway through the first, or just up and quit. It could even be a 'lazy adult' roll, where anything goes after they hit adulthood, like a forced midlife crisis. (Obviously, one of these ideas, I'm not suggesting all of them together. But instead of your heir or whomever having to work the same career, this would allow some change, you could roll again if they're poor, and have them work less if the family has too much money. I like the idea too if they're making too much money too fast, and I've met rich people who do this IRL, basically have a part time job they don't work hard at because they want to meet people or stay busy).

Also about kids, what if 'Twins' was a side roll, not in the numbers (such as under Misc Fun)? Is that too difficult to predict? “Have a set of twins”?

As for 'separate rolls for kids', I just meant something like the above, which you can turn on as an adjustment to the normal kid's roll. Like, the 'a set of twins' roll, or even something like a 'secret love-child' where there's a kid born outside of the generation between the heir, while they have a lover already and they have to cheat. Obviously some of these would compromise the single child roll however. Here's a potential list of ideas for that;

-Set of twins
-Secret Love-child, cheating cannot be discovered & no clean slate
-Runaway child (one of the kids stays at friend's houses or becomes homeless for a week but you still play them and the normal family at the same time)
-Frienimies (one of the kids in house has a falling out with their best friend and they become enemies or snubbing happens)
-Adopt my best friend (one of the kids' best friends is added to the household but cannot become the heir- something like this may exist already)
-Sad Step-child (adopt a child or have an 'ill-favored' stepchild that gets the cheapest of everything in their room, less or no toys and can only eat leftovers, no birthday parties and not invited on family outings.
-Dropout- (child in house can't do homework, or can only do it autonomously or something
Honor student (child in house goes to every possible club and finishes homework every night, sort of a variant of perfect children, more for child stage than teen)
-Childhood Obsession (child in house has to get to level five of any skill before graduation)
-Epic birthday. Parents have to have a party for one of their children that 'verges on epic'
-Von Trap Children- Each child needs to get to level (3 or 5) of a separate instrument (family band roll instead?)
-All-Star Lineup- similar as above except with sports/ athletics. Probably would help to have seasons for this one. Basically each child specializes in a different sport. (football and baseball are just catch though, but soccer, golf, snowboarding, riding, snorkeling, ballet, simfu and track/weight training can be considered)

My replies and elaborations (sorry its long but I love this conversation right now!);

@Frogsnack Twins are already super common, it's incredibly easy to force them and a lot of people seem to force multiple births so they don't have to put up with as many pregnancies (or they want to have more kids than they rolled for). Any roll involving twins is just kind of... meh, in my opinion.

Secret love child... uh... I dunno, sims seem to be psychic about cheating. I once had my heir date a guy who had a previous boyfriend that he'd broken up with in high school. My heir was being all romantic with her future husband, when suddenly the ex drove up out of nowhere, hopped out of his car, screeched at the guy for "cheating" and slapped the !@#$ out of him.

As for the other rolls, if you want a whole section devoted for special child rolls, we'd need a lot more of them. Otherwise they'd get extremely repetitive and arbitrary. Maybe we could add it as optional rolls (we have an option rules/rolls section that I ignore; it has pet legacy rolls and overarching legacy rolls; child rolls might fit better there than as part of the main challenge).

Identity Crisis is interesting. We'd have to put it under section F, so it couldn't be rolled in conjunction with Random Traits (you can't plan for a trait that conflicts with your job if you can't pick your heir's traits). I'll add that if there are no objections.

Library ... I... do not ever want to go through my sim's bookshelves and count to see how many books there are, especially if I have to count over 10, haha. Finding out how much they're worth seems like it would be a hassle too. I'd end up just going to the store and buying however much money worth of books all at once, over and done. Not much of an interactive challenge there.

Someone probably asked about jarring in the past for farmer and we said it was OK but didn't add it to the rules. Probably. If that's what happened, we're fixing it now!

As for the discussion about single parents' kids not knowing their other parent... nothing in the rules prevents them from visiting the other parent. I guess most people don't bother, and just want a roll that forces them to because otherwise they wouldn't? That can be arranged...

Those are interesting notes about resorts. I added Resort Owner to the careers in my draft.

I don't think capping the subway busking is necessary. Some careers (like collector, for example) can be extremely lucrative, while others simply aren't. Paired with other rolls that means that one generation may drown in cash while another might struggle to make ends meet. Imo, that is part of the challenge aspect. Not all careers are created equal.

Busking, if done outside, barely makes any money (at least until a very high skill level), so the option of going into the subway feels like a nice way to even that out. Having the option to earn more money with music also creates the opportunity to pretend your sim has a successful band, for example. (Because LN bands are a part of the busker roll, but gig opportunities are so rare that having an actual successful band on a normal lifespan is pretty much impossible.)

Besides, iirc, busking in the subway also comes with the risk of being mugged, which takes away a chunk of the earnings and gives your sim a bad moodlet. Risk/reward, and all that.

So, tl;dr: I feel like the amount of money earned should be left up to what kind of story you want to tell. Having the options of either struggling or making it big keep the roll interesting even if you've played it before.

In the same vein, I think parental visitation rights should not be dictated by rolls. Nothing in the "single parent" roll prevents you from making an arrangement where the child spends a set amount of time with the other parent. That's what keeps the challenge interesting over a long period of time. You can roll "single parent" five times in a row and make each story completely different. The child could know their other parent or not, the parents could still be romantic or not... turning these variations into separate rolls sounds overly restrictive.

Same thing with the rolls specifically for children. There are some fun ideas in there (except for the "sad step-child" - that one's just cruel ;_; ) and nothing is stopping you from telling these stories within any given set of rolls. Forcing these story-oriented things feels stifling though. If they are implemented, it should definitely be optional.

A lot of negativity from my corner! Sorry about that! I just feel like we need to preserve what makes this challenge special. I always thought that the beauty of the RLC is all the creative freedom you have within the rolls. There are way too many challenges out there that try and dictate every little detail of a sim's life, which just sounds dull.

That said, yay to resort owner as a roll! The amount of investment required seems somewhat daunting, especially if it happens to be a first generation roll. Then again, having a generation that struggles for money is always fun. Imagine a poor founder sim forced to couch surf around town because they are pouring all of their money into a crappy little resort! I really want to play that now.

The blogger career is pretty low-involvement and low-income, which I believe is why it's only available as a secondary income. I like it for the variety it offers in storytelling though! Your sim could be writing a lifestyle blog, or a gaming blog, or a blog focused on conspiracy theories... so many options for different stories and different personalities in there! On the other hand, I like the idea of allowing other careers to have blogs too; especially if some careers (like sports agent) unlock special types of blogs.

"The Shake Up" sounds fun!

EDIT: A kind of Second Chance roll but for careers could be interesting. Something between a regular career roll and a Job Hopper roll. However, the rules should never dictate why a sim decides to change careers or how much effort they put into their second job (unless it's an Idle Career roll). Reasoning should always be up to the individual story and both careers should have the potential to be any kind of job! So your sim could start out a successful businessperson, but decide later in life that their passion lies in collecting rocks. Or they could start out as a dumpster diver, but then move on to a rabbithole career later on.

@melynx I agree with almost everything you said. I just couldn't figure out a way to say it without seeming like I want to shoot down everyone's ideas.

It's not that we don't have a few rolls that seem to force story, but they're all rather open ended.

I also don't really want to add a ton of rolls that force you to get used to a sim, only to have to toss them halfway through the generation. Even though I just suggested one so it may seem hypocritical, I felt "The Shake Up" was different enough from second chance to warrant its own thing, and it lets you swap out one sim for another (and a radically different family structure). The delayed single thing just feels... kind of punishing, and the goal seems to force you to tell a story you could have told with a single parent roll. And the more of these kinds of rolls there are, the less special it is to roll them.

I looked in my game with my sports agent and realized the sports blog is actually a sports BOOK. I am a moron. Even though they have to max social networking, they get the option to write a sports... book. Not blog. Oops. I'm still in favor of tacking blogging on to the journalism career, though, especially after my own dull, almost non-interactive experiences with it, and what others here have shared about it.

EDIT: I want to ask, how does everyone set their ages? Do we need to clarify what counts as close enough to a "normal" lifespan?

I like the idea of a second chance career! I know often in story I have mine hop jobs but actually keep the same one (purely because I find can't really think of anyone who's always had the same job, but irl is different obviously) so if we can work that into the rules, I think we should! It could be like a midlife crisis thing, similar to job hopper but a little bit less lmao

As for aging, I think as long as you stick to about 80-110 days then it should be fine. I don't like having to have them at certain ages for so long, like I dunno why but I hate the child stage and would rather have a longer toddler stage than child, so I think if we give a cumulative mass rather than specific values

Yeah, I was thinking in terms of total lifespan, not in terms of specific stages. I have mine set to 95 days.

I was thinking between 90 and 120 days is ideal, but I want to see what the community here thinks.

Also it's easy to write "different jobs" with some of these rabbit hole careers, lol. In some careers, every level is a wildly different thing.

(That's not a point against Second Chance for Career, it's just an observation.)

Hmm that's strange, but I would still allow blogs for sports agents since they need that skill. I have totally not rolled sports agent for the future and I have totally not planned anything in that direction. :x

For the lifespan... oof, I'd need to change mine then. I have troubles keeping it so short while still having enough time for storytelling. Copied from my own blog:

Too long? Right now the rules just say "don't get to the point where you created an epic lifespan" and I didn't

Oooo I like the second chance career! Right now I do it like Becky said (pretend to have switched jobs for story-telling, even if it was just a promotion in game), but a proper second chance roll would be nice!

That's what I'm here for! Shooting down everyone's ideas XD Sorry guys! There are many great notions coming up here, but I won't budge on the opinion that the challenge needs to retain that element of creative freedom.

I agree, the delayed single roll seems superfluous. Something very similar can already be done with a Second Chance roll - the rules don't specify how long your sim has to be with the first partner and when they have to get the second one. They could theoretically find that new partner on the last day before their generation ends.

My sims' lifespan is set to something like 100-110 days. The difficulty level of certain challenges would definitely be affected by a longer lifespan, so setting a guideline of 90-120 days sounds good. I'm using the word guideline instead of rule here, because I can understand not wanting your sims to die too quickly! It's always up to the individual to adjust or ignore certain rules anyway

So yeah, you can ignore my input regarding the busker career, since I seem to be the only one that doesn't want an income restriction. I might just ignore that rule if I ever decide to have a busker that isn't a starving artist

That's too bad about the sports blog! I guess blogging by itself is a pretty lackluster career after all. (Even if we take it off the list, I might keep it for funsies myself. I like playing sims with low maintenance jobs, because that gives them so much more time to explore and socialize!)

@Nocriel Blogs are already allowed for any sim. You just can't ask for donations or sell the blogs. The rules allow you to keep unsolicited donations. Merging blogger career with journalism would merely allow journalists to ask for donations and sell their blogs.

My problem with the wording that just says not to create an epic lifespan is this: the difference between normal and epic is huge. The challenge always intended the lifespan to be much closer to normal, but with the current wording, I can see how some people might misconstrue it to think they can fall just sort of having epic lifespans.

So I wanted to bring it up, see what people think.

As Annie said, "It's always up to the individual to adjust or ignore certain rules anyway".

Although I would still throw the Deadbeat Parents roll out the window if given half a chance.

I don't feel like the delayed single thing would be a roll that's just story based. I just feel like it's a waste that the only options for children are pretty much 'dad/step dad lives with the entire time' or 'not at all'. That would be a roll I would want to roll for gameplay, not just strictly story-based. But having said that, the 'Shake It Up' roll would pretty much fulfil the same purpose, so if we have to choose either the one or the other, I'd be indifferent. I agree though that rolls shouldn't be story-specific, as half the fun is trying to figure out what story you want to write/play for each specific roll.

I like the Second Career Attempt thing though. It could be interesting to play with, but it'll probably conflict with Perfect Careers, wouldn't it?

Personally, I play with a lifespan of 130 days, but my elder stage is 20 days and I always move my heir to a new house before the previous generation becomes elders, so I don't actually play with the elders - I just like having them running around the town for a little longer. Which means my lifespan is technically 110 days, at most? IDK. I'll admit though, if a rule is included that forces me to restrict my sims' lifetime to, say, 90 days, I would flatly ignore it and continue playing as I have, as the lifespan I use is the one I've decided over the many years of playing TS3 that I'm the happiest with. I'd say it's personal choice - as long as the 'Normal lifespan' slider is used, it shouldn't really matter all that much. That's just my opinion, though.

Also, totally off-topic, but I have an update: XD

Chapter 3.18 - No Inhibitions

In the draft, I've added Second Chance for Career under Section E, which is the same one Perfect Careers is in, so there's no chance of rolling them both.

Even though the name suggests it, Deadbeat Parents doesn't need to mean horribly neglectful parents! I once read a blog (I forget which one) where the author explained the lack of education for the kids with traveling performer parents. There are several interesting angles that don't include actual deadbeat parents - they could be hippies that believe in letting nature take its course, workaholics who happened to hire lazy babysitters, or the children themselves could be completely averse to learning. And really, all the roll results in is randomized traits, which isn't that bad. Sorry to go off-topic here, I just always thought of it as an interesting roll!

That's not off topic. I brought it up.

Or are you saying I'm off topic? xD

No, that's not what I was trying to say! Sorry, bad choice of words, haha XD